philebus-第10节
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Soc。 No more can that neutral or middle life be rightly or
reasonably spoken or thought of as pleasant or painful。
Pro。 Certainly not。
Soc。 And yet； my friend； there are； as we know； persons who say
and think so。
Pro。 Certainly。
Soc。 And do they think that they have pleasure when they are free
from pain？
Pro。 They say so。
Soc。 And they must think or they would not say that they have
pleasure。
Pro。 I suppose not。
Soc。 And yet if pleasure and the negation of pain are of distinct
natures； they are wrong。
Pro。 But they are undoubtedly of distinct natures。
Soc。 Then shall we take the view that they are three； as we were
just now saying； or that they are two only…the one being a state of
pain； which is an evil； and the other a cessation of pain； which is of
itself a good； and is called pleasant？
Pro。 But why； Socrates； do we ask the question at all？ I do not
see the reason。
Soc。 You； Protarchus； have clearly never heard of certain enemies of
our friend Philebus。
Pro。 And who may they be？
Soc。 Certain persons who are reputed to be masters in natural
philosophy； who deny the very existence of pleasure。
Pro。 Indeed。
Soc。 They say that what the school of Philebus calls pleasures are
all of them only avoidances of pain。
Pro。 And would you； Socrates； have us agree with them？
Soc。 Why； no； I would rather use them as a sort of diviners； who
divine the truth； not by rules of art； but by an instinctive
repugnance and extreme detestation which a noble nature has of the
power of pleasure； in which they think that there is nothing sound；
and her seductive influence is declared by them to be witchcraft；
and not pleasure。 This is the use which you may make of them。 And when
you have considered the various grounds of their dislike； you shall
hear from me what I deem to be true pleasures。 Having thus examined
the nature of pleasure from both points of view； we will bring her
up for judgment。
Pro。 Well said。
Soc。 Then let us enter into an alliance with these philosophers
and follow in the track of their dislike。 I imagine that they would
say something of this sort； they would begin at the beginning； and ask
whether； if we wanted to know the nature of any quality； such as
hardness； we should be more likely to discover it by looking at the
hardest things； rather than at the least hard？ You； Protarchus；
shall answer these severe gentlemen as you answer me。
Pro。 By all means； and I reply to them； that you should look at
the greatest instances。
Soc。 Then if we want to see the true nature of pleasures as a class；
we should not look at the most diluted pleasures； but at the most
extreme and most vehement？
Pro。 In that every one will agree。
Soc。 And the obvious instances of the greatest pleasures； as we have
often said； are the pleasures of the body？
Pro。 Certainly。
Soc。 And are they felt by us to be or become greater； when we are
sick or when we are in health？ And here we must be careful in our
answer； or we shall come to grief。
Pro。 How will that be？
Soc。 Why； because we might be tempted to answer； 〃When we are in
health。〃
Pro。 Yes； that is the natural answer。
Soc。 Well； but are not those pleasures the greatest of which mankind
have the greatest desires？
Pro。 True。
Soc。 And do not people who are in a fever； or any similar illness；
feel cold or thirst or other bodily affections more intensely？ Am I
not right in saying that they have a deeper want and greater
pleasure in the satisfaction of their want？
Pro。 That is obvious as soon as it is said。
Soc。 Well； then； shall we not be right in saying； that if a person
would wish to see the greatest pleasures he ought to go and look；
not at health； but at discase？ And here you must distinguish：…do not
imagine that I mean to ask whether those who are very ill have more
pleasures than those who are well； but understand that I am speaking
of the magnitude of pleasure； I want to know where pleasures are found
to be most intense。 For； as I say； we have to discover what is
pleasure； and what they mean by pleasure who deny her very existence。
Pro。 I think I follow you。
Soc。 You will soon have a better opportunity of showing whether
you do or not； Protarchus。 Answer now； and tell me whether you see；
I will not say more； but more intense and excessive pleasures in
wantonness than in temperance？ Reflect before you speak。
Pro。 I understand you； and see that there is a great difference
between them； the temperate are restrained by the wise man's
aphorism of 〃Never too much；〃 which is their rule； but excess of
pleasure possessing the minds of fools and wantons becomes madness and
makes them shout with delight。
Soc。 Very good； and if this be true； then the greatest pleasures and
pains will clearly be found in some vicious state of soul and body；
and not in a virtuous state。
Pro。 Certainly。
Soc。 And ought we not to select some of these for examination； and
see what makes them the greatest？
Pro。 To be sure we ought。
Soc。 Take the case of the pleasures which arise out of certain
disorders。
Pro。 What disorders？
Soc。 The pleasures of unseemly disorders； which our severe friends
utterly detest。
Pro。 What pleasures？
Soc。 Such； for example； as the relief of itching and other
ailments by scratching； which is the only remedy required。 For what in
Heaven's name is the feeling to be called which is thus produced in
us？…Pleasure or pain？
Pro。 A villainous mixture of some kind； Socrates； I should say。
Soc。 I did not introduce the argument； O Protarchus； with any
personal reference to Philebus； but because； without the consideration
of these and similar pleasures； we shall not be able to determine
the point at issue。
Pro。 Then we had better proceed to analyze this family of pleasures。
Soe。 You mean the pleasures which are mingled with pain？
Pro。 Exactly。
Soc。 There are some mixtures which are of the body； and only in
the body； and others which are of the soul； and only in the soul；
while there are other mixtures of pleasures with pains； common both to
soul and body； which in their composite state are called sometimes
pleasures and sometimes pains。
Pro。 How is that？
Soc。 Whenever； in the restoration or in the derangement of nature； a
man experiences two opposite feelings； for example； when he is cold
and is growing warm； or again； when he is hot and is becoming cool；
and he wants to have the one and be rid of the other；…the sweet has
a bitter； as the common saying is； and both together fasten upon him
and create irritation and in time drive him to distraction。
Pro。 That description is very true to nature。
Soc。 And in these sorts of mixtures the pleasures and pains are
sometimes equal； and sometimes one or other of them predominates？
Pro。 True。
Soc。 Of cases in which the pain exceeds the pleasure； an example
is afforded by itching； of which we were just now speaking； and by the
tingling which we feel when the boiling and fiery element is within；
and the rubbing and motion only relieves the surface； and does not
reach the parts affected； then if you put them to the fire； and as a
last resort apply cold to them； you may often produce the most intense
pleasure or pain in the inner parts； which contrasts and mingles
with the pain or pleasure； as the case may be； of the outer parts； and
this is due to the forcible separation of what is united； or to the
union of what is separated； and to the juxtaposition of pleasure and
pain。
Pro。 Quite so。
Soc。 Sometimes the element of pleasure prevails in a man； and the
slight undercurrent of pain makes him tingle； and causes a gentle
irritation； or again； the excessive infusion of pleasure creates an
excitement in him；…he even leaps for joy； he assumes all sorts of
attitudes； he changes all manner of colours； he gasps for breath；
and is quite amazed； and utters the most irrational exclamations。
Pro。 Yes； indeed。
Soc。 He will say of himself； and others will of him； that he is
dying with these delights； and the more dissipated and
good…for…nothing he is； the more vehemently he pursues them in every
way； of all pleasures he declares them to be the greatest； and he
reckons him who lives in the most constant enjoyment of them to be the
happiest of mankind。
Pro。 That； Socrates； is a very true description of the opinions of
the majority about pleasures。
Soc。 Yes； Protarchus； quite true of the mixed pleasures； which arise
out of the communion of external and internal sensations in the
body； there are also cases in wh
