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day　before；　and　makes　constantly　all　over　the　country；　I　ask　your

attention　to　them。　　In　the　first　place；　what　is　necessary　to　make

the　institution　national？　　Not　war。　　There　is　no　danger　that　the

people　of　Kentucky　will　shoulder　their　muskets；　and；　with　a　young

nigger　stuck　on　every　bayonet；　march　into　Illinois　and　force　them

upon　us。　　There　is　no　danger　of　our　going　over　there　and　making

war　upon　them。　　Then　what　is　necessary　for　the　nationalization　of

slavery？　　It　is　simply　the　next　Dred　Scott　decision。　　It　is

merely　for　the　Supreme　Court　to　decide　that　no　State　under　the

Constitution　can　exclude　it；　just　as　they　have　already　decided

that　under　the　Constitution　neither　Congress　nor　the　Territorial

Legislature　can　do　it。　　When　that　is　decided　and　acquiesced　in；

the　whole　thing　is　done。　　This　being　true；　and　this　being　the

way；　as　I　think；　that　slavery　is　to　be　made　national；　let　us

consider　what　Judge　Douglas　is　doing　every　day　to　that　end。　　In

the　first　place；　let　us　see　what　influence　he　is　exerting　on

public　sentiment。　　In　this　and　like　communities；　public　sentiment

is　everything。　　With　public　sentiment；　nothing　can　fail；　without

it；　nothing　can　succeed。　　Consequently；　he　who　moulds　public

sentiment　goes　deeper　than　he　who　enacts　statutes　or　pronounces

decisions。　　He　makes　statutes　and　decisions　possible　or

impossible　to　be　executed。　　This　must　be　borne　in　mind；　as　also

the　additional　fact　that　Judge　Douglas　is　a　man　of　vast

influence；　so　great　that　it　is　enough　for　many　men　to　profess　to

believe　anything　when　they　once　find　out　Judge　Douglas　professes

to　believe　it。　　Consider　also　the　attitude　he　occupies　at　the

head　of　a　large　party；a　party　which　he　claims　has　a　majority　of

all　the　voters　in　the　country。　　This　man　sticks　to　a　decision

which　forbids　the　people　of　a　Territory　from　excluding　slavery；

and　he　does　so；　not　because　he　says　it　is　right　in　itself；he

does　not　give　any　opinion　on　that；but　because　it　has　been

decided　by　the　court；　and　being　decided　by　the　court；　he　is；　and

you　are；　bound　to　take　it　in　your　political　action　as　law；　not

that　he　judges　at　all　of　its　merits；　but　because　a　decision　of

the　court　is　to　him　a　〃Thus　saith　the　Lord。〃　　He　places　it　on

that　ground　alone；　and　you　will　bear　in　mind　that　thus　committing

himself　unreservedly　to　this　decision　commits　him　to　the　next　one

just　as　firmly　as　to　this。　　He　did　not　commit　himself　on　account

of　the　merit　or　demerit　of　the　decision；　but　it　is　a　〃Thus　saith

the　Lord。〃　　The　next　decision；　as　much　as　this；　will　be　a　〃Thus

saith　the　Lord。〃　　There　is　nothing　that　can　divert　or　turn　him

away　from　this　decision。　　It　is　nothing　that　I　point　out　to　him

that　his　great　prototype；　General　Jackson；　did　not　believe　in　the

binding　force　of　decisions。　　It　is　nothing　to　him　that　Jefferson

did　not　so　believe。　　I　have　said　that　I　have　often　heard　him

approve　of　Jackson's　course　in　disregarding　the　decision　of　the

Supreme　Court　pronouncing　a　National　Bank　constitutional。　　He

says　I　did　not　hear　him　say　so。　　He　denies　the　accuracy　of　my

recollection。　　I　say　he　ought　to　know　better　than　I；　but　I　will

make　no　question　about　this　thing；　though　it　still　seems　to　me

that　I　heard　him　say　it　twenty　times。　　I　will　tell　him；　though；

that　he　now　claims　to　stand　on　the　Cincinnati　platform；　which

affirms　that　Congress　cannot　charter　a　National　Bank；　in　the

teeth　of　that　old　standing　decision　that　Congress　can　charter　a

bank。　　And　I　remind　him　of　another　piece　of　history　on　the

question　of　respect　for　judicial　decisions；　and　it　is　a　piece　of

Illinois　history　belonging　to　a　time　when　the　large　party　to

which　Judge　Douglas　belonged　were　displeased　with　a　decision　of

the　Supreme　Court　of　Illinois；　because　they　had　decided　that　a

Governor　could　not　remove　a　Secretary　of　State。　　You　will　find

the　whole　story　in　Ford's　History　of　Illinois；　and　I　know　that

Judge　Douglas　will　not　deny　that　he　was　then　in　favor　of　over…

slaughing　that　decision　by　the　mode　of　adding　five　new　judges；　so

as　to　vote　down　the　four　old　ones。　　Not　only　so；　but　it　ended　in

the　Judge's　sitting　down　on　that　very　bench　as　one　of　the　five

new　judges　to　break　down　the　four　old　ones　　It　was　in　this　way

precisely　that　he　got　his　title　of　judge。　　Now；　when　the　Judge

tells　me　that　men　appointed　conditionally　to　sit　as　members　of　a

court　will　have　to　be　catechized　beforehand　upon　some　subject；　I

say；　〃You　know；　Judge；　you　have　tried　it。〃　　When　he　says　a　court

of　this　kind　will　lose　the　confidence　of　all　men；　will　be

prostituted　and　disgraced　by　such　a　proceeding；　I　say；　〃You　know

best；　Judge；　you　have　been　through　the　mill。〃　　But　I　cannot　shake

Judge　Douglas's　teeth　loose　from　the　Dred　Scott　decision。　　Like

some　obstinate　animal　（I　mean　no　disrespect）　that　will　hang　on

when　he　has　once　got　his　teeth　fixed；　you　may　cut　off　a　leg；　or

you　may　tear　away　an　arm；　still　he　will　not　relax　his　hold。　　And

so　I　may　point　out　to　the　Judge；　and　say　that　he　is　bespattered

all　over；　from　the　beginning　of　his　political　life　to　the　present

time；　with　attacks　upon　judicial　decisions；　I　may　cut　off　limb

after　limb　of　his　public　record；　and　strive　to　wrench　him　from　a

single　dictum　of　the　court；yet　I　cannot　divert　him　from　it。　　He

hangs；　to　the　last；　to　the　Dred　Scott　decision。　　These　things

show　there　is　a　purpose　strong　as　death　and　eternity　for　which　he

adheres　to　this　decision；　and　for　which　he　will　adhere　to　all

other　decisions　of　the　same　court。



＇A　HIBERNIAN：　〃Give　us　something　besides　Dred　Scott。〃＇



Yes；　no　doubt　you　want　to　hear　something　that　don't　hurt。　　Now；

having　spoken　of　the　Dred　Scott　decision；　one　more　word；　and　I　am

done。　　Henry　Clay；　my　beau…ideal　of　a　statesman；　the　man　for　whom

I　fought　all　my　humble　life；　Henry　Clay　once　said　of　a　class　of

men　who　would　repress　all　tendencies　to　liberty　and　ultimate

emancipation　that　they　must；　if　they　would　do　this；　go　back　to

the　era　of　our　Independence；　and　muzzle　the　cannon　which　thunders

its　annual　joyous　return；　they　must　blow　out　the　moral　lights

around　us；　they　must　penetrate　the　human　soul；　and　eradicate

there　the　love　of　liberty；　and　then；　and　not　till　then；　could

they　perpetuate　slavery　in　this　country！　　To　my　thinking；　Judge

Douglas　is；　by　his　example　and　vast　influence；　doing　that　very

thing　in　this　community；　when　he　says　that　the　negro　has　nothing

in　the　Declaration　of　Independence。　　Henry　Clay　plainly

understood　the　contrary。　　Judge　Douglas　is　going　back　to　the　era

of　our　Revolution；　and；　to　the　extent　of　his　ability；　muzzling

the　cannon　which　thunders　its　annual　joyous　return。　　When　he

invites　any　people；　willing　to　have　slavery；　to　establish　it；　he

is　blowing　out　the　moral　lights　around　us。　　When　he　says　he

〃cares　not　whether　slavery　is　voted　down　or　up；〃that　it　is　a

sacred　right　of　self…government；he　is；　in　my　judgment；

penetrating　the　human　soul　and　eradicating　the　light　of　reason

and　the　love　of　liberty　in　this　American　people。　　And　now　I　will

only　say　that　when；　by　all　these　means　and　appliances；　Judge

Douglas　shall　succeed　in　bringing　public　sentiment　to　an　exact

accordance　with　his　own　views；　when　these　vast　assemblages　shall

echo　back　all　these　sentiments；　when　they　shall　come　to　repeat

his　views　and　to　avow　his　principles；　and　to　say　all　that　he　says

on　these　mighty　questions；then　it　needs　only　the　formality　of

the　second　Dred　Scott　decision；　which　he　indorses　in　advance；　to

make　slavery　alike　lawful　in　all　the　States；　old　as　well　as　new；

North　as　well　as　South。



My　friends；　that　ends　the　chapter。　　The　Judge　can　take　his

half…hour。









SECOND　JOINT　DEBATE；　AT　FREEPORT；



AUGUST　27；　1858



LADIES　AND　GENTLEMEN：On　Saturday　last；　Judge　Douglas　and　myself

first　met　in　public　discussion。　　He　spoke　one　hour；　I　an　hour　and

a　half；　and　he　replied　for　half　an　hour。　　The　order　is　now

reversed。　　I　am　to　speak　an　hour；　he　an　hour　and　a　half；　and　then

I　am　to　reply　for　half　an　hour。　　I　propose　to　devote　myself

during　the　first　hour　to　the　scope　of　what　was　brought　within　the

range　of　his　half…hour　speech　at　Ottawa。　　Of　course　there　was

brought　within　the　scope　in　that　half…hour's　speech　something　of

his　own　opening　speech。　　In　the　course　of　that　opening　argument

Judge　Douglas　proposed　to　me　seven　distinct　interrogatories。　　In

my　speech　of　an　hour　and　a　half；　I　attended　to　some　other　parts

of　his　speech；　and　incidentally；　as　I　thought；　intimated　to　him

that　I　would　answer　the　rest　of　his　interrogatories　on　condition

only　that　he　should　agree　to　answer　as　many　for　me。　　He　made　no

intimation　at　the　time　of　the　proposition；　nor　did　he　in　his

reply　allude　at　all　to　that　suggestion　of　mine。　　I　do　him　no

injustice　in　saying　that　he　occupied　at　least　half　of　his　reply

in　dealing　with　me　as　though　I　had　refused　to　answer　his

interrogatories。　　I　now　propose　that　I　will　answer　any　of　the

interrogatories；　upon　condition　that　he　will　answer　questions

from　me　not