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stricken out; he tells us in a speech; not then but since; that these

alterations and modifications in the bill had been made by HIM; in

consultation with Toombs; the originator of the bill。  He tells us

the same to…day。  He says there were certain modifications made in

the bill in committee that he did not vote for。  I ask you to

remember; while certain amendments were made which he disapproved of;

but which a majority of the committee voted in; he has himself told

us that in this particular the alterations and modifications were

made by him; upon consultation with Toombs。  We have his own word

that these alterations were made by him; and not by the committee。

Now; I ask; what is the reason Judge Douglas is so chary about coming

to the exact question?  What is the reason he will not tell you

anything about How it was made; BY WHOM it was made; or that he

remembers it being made at all?  Why does he stand playing upon the

meaning of words and quibbling around the edges of the evidence?  If

he can explain all this; but leaves it unexplained; I have the right

to infer that Judge Douglas understood it was the purpose of his

party; in engineering that bill through; to make a constitution; and

have Kansas come into the Union with that constitution; without its

being submitted to a vote of the people。  If he will explain his

action on this question; by giving a better reason for the facts that

happened than he has done; it will be satisfactory。  But until he

does thatuntil he gives a better or more plausible reason than he

has offered against the evidence in the caseI suggest to him it

will not avail him at all that he swells himself up; takes on

dignity; and calls people liars。  Why; sir; there is not a word in

Trumbull's speech that depends on Trumbull's veracity at all。  He has

only arrayed the evidence and told you what follows as a matter of

reasoning。  There is not a statement in the whole speech that depends

on Trumbull's word。  If you have ever studied geometry; you remember

that by a course of reasoning Euclid proves that all the angles in a

triangle are equal to two right angles。  Euclid has shown you how to

work it out。  Now; if you undertake to disprove that proposition; and

to show that it is erroneous; would you prove it to be false by

calling Euclid a liar?  They tell me that my time is out; and

therefore I close。









FIFTH JOINT DEBATE; AT GALESBURGH;



OCTOBER 7; 1858



Mr。 LINCOLN'S REPLY。



MY FELLOW…CITIZENS: A very large portion of the speech which Judge

Douglas has addressed to you has previously been delivered and put in

print。  I do not mean that for a hit upon the Judge at all。…  If I

had not been interrupted; I was going to say that such an answer as I

was able to make to a very large portion of it had already been more

than once made and published。  There has been an opportunity afforded

to the public to see our respective views upon the topics discussed

in a large portion of the speech which he has just delivered。  I make

these remarks for the purpose of excusing myself for not passing over

the entire ground that the Judge has traversed。  I however desire to

take up some of the points that he has attended to; and ask your

attention to them; and I shall follow him backwards upon some notes

which I have taken; reversing the order; by beginning where he

concluded。



The Judge has alluded to the Declaration of Independence; and

insisted that negroes are not included in that Declaration; and that

it is a slander upon the framers of that instrument to suppose that

negroes were meant therein; and he asks you: Is it possible to

believe that Mr。 Jefferson; who penned the immortal paper; could have

supposed himself applying the language of that instrument to the

negro race; and yet held a portion of that race in slavery?  Would he

not at once have freed them?  I only have to remark upon this part of

the Judge's speech (and that; too; very briefly; for I shall not

detain myself; or you; upon that point for any great length of time);

that I believe the entire records of the world; from the date of the

Declaration of Independence up to within three years ago; may be

searched in vain for one single affirmation; from one single man;

that the negro was not included in the Declaration of Independence; I

think I may defy Judge Douglas to show that he ever said so; that

Washington ever said so; that any President ever said so; that any

member of Congress ever said so; or that any living man upon the

whole earth ever said so; until the necessities of the present policy

of the Democratic party; in regard to slavery; had to invent that

affirmation。  And I will remind Judge Douglas and this audience that

while Mr。 Jefferson was the owner of slaves; as undoubtedly he was;

in speaking upon this very subject he used the strong language that

〃he trembled for his country when he remembered that God was just〃;

and I will offer the highest premium in my power to Judge Douglas if

he will show that he; in all his life; ever uttered a sentiment at

all akin to that of Jefferson。



The next thing to which I will ask your attention is the Judge's

comments upon the fact; as he assumes it to be; that we cannot call

our public meetings as Republican meetings; and he instances Tazewell

County as one of the places where the friends of Lincoln have called

a public meeting and have not dared to name it a Republican meeting。

He instances Monroe County as another; where Judge Trumbull and Jehu

Baker addressed the persons whom the Judge assumes to be the friends

of Lincoln calling them the 〃Free Democracy。〃  I have the honor to

inform Judge Douglas that he spoke in that very county of Tazewell

last Saturday; and I was there on Tuesday last; and when he spoke

there; he spoke under a call not venturing to use the word

〃Democrat。〃  'Turning to Judge Douglas。' what think you of this?



So; again; there is another thing to which I would ask the Judge's

attention upon this subject。  In the contest of 1856 his party

delighted to call themselves together as the 〃National Democracy〃;

but now; if there should be a notice put up anywhere for a meeting of

the 〃National Democracy;〃 Judge Douglas and his friends would not

come。  They would not suppose themselves invited。  They would

understand that it was a call for those hateful postmasters whom he

talks about。



Now a few words in regard to these extracts from speeches of mine

which Judge Douglas has read to you; and which he supposes are in

very great contrast to each other。  Those speeches have been before

the public for a considerable time; and if they have any

inconsistency in them; if there is any conflict in them; the public

have been able to detect it。  When the Judge says; in speaking on

this subject; that I make speeches of one sort for the people of the

northern end of the State; and of a different sort for the southern

people; he assumes that I do not understand that my speeches will be

put in print and read north and south。  I knew all the while that the

speech that I made at Chicago; and the one I made at Jonesboro and

the one at Charleston; would all be put in print; and all the reading

and intelligent men in the community would see them and know all

about my opinions。  And I have not supposed; and do not now suppose;

that there is any conflict whatever between them。  But the Judge will

have it that if we do not confess that there is a sort of inequality

between the white and black races which justifies us in making them

slaves; we must then insist that there is a degree of equality that

requires us to make them our wives。  Now; I have all the while taken

a broad distinction in regard to that matter; and that is all there

is in these different speeches which he arrays here; and the entire

reading of either of the speeches will show that that distinction was

made。  Perhaps by taking two parts of the same speech he could have

got up as much of a conflict as the one he has found。  I have all the

while maintained that in so far as it should be insisted that there

was an equality between the white and black races that should produce

a perfect social and political equality; it was an impossibility。

This you have seen in my printed speeches; and with it I have said

that in their right to 〃life; liberty; and the pursuit of happiness;〃

as proclaimed in that old Declaration; the inferior races are our

equals。  And these declarations I have constantly made in reference

to the abstract moral question; to contemplate and consider when we

are legislating about any new country which is not already cursed

with the actual presence of the evil;slavery。  I have never

manifested any impatience with the necessities that spring from the

actual presence of black people amongst us; and the actual existence

of slavery amongst us where it does already exist; but I have

insisted that; in legislating for new c

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