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stricken　out；　he　tells　us　in　a　speech；　not　then　but　since；　that　these

alterations　and　modifications　in　the　bill　had　been　made　by　HIM；　in

consultation　with　Toombs；　the　originator　of　the　bill。　　He　tells　us

the　same　to…day。　　He　says　there　were　certain　modifications　made　in

the　bill　in　committee　that　he　did　not　vote　for。　　I　ask　you　to

remember；　while　certain　amendments　were　made　which　he　disapproved　of；

but　which　a　majority　of　the　committee　voted　in；　he　has　himself　told

us　that　in　this　particular　the　alterations　and　modifications　were

made　by　him；　upon　consultation　with　Toombs。　　We　have　his　own　word

that　these　alterations　were　made　by　him；　and　not　by　the　committee。

Now；　I　ask；　what　is　the　reason　Judge　Douglas　is　so　chary　about　coming

to　the　exact　question？　　What　is　the　reason　he　will　not　tell　you

anything　about　How　it　was　made；　BY　WHOM　it　was　made；　or　that　he

remembers　it　being　made　at　all？　　Why　does　he　stand　playing　upon　the

meaning　of　words　and　quibbling　around　the　edges　of　the　evidence？　　If

he　can　explain　all　this；　but　leaves　it　unexplained；　I　have　the　right

to　infer　that　Judge　Douglas　understood　it　was　the　purpose　of　his

party；　in　engineering　that　bill　through；　to　make　a　constitution；　and

have　Kansas　come　into　the　Union　with　that　constitution；　without　its

being　submitted　to　a　vote　of　the　people。　　If　he　will　explain　his

action　on　this　question；　by　giving　a　better　reason　for　the　facts　that

happened　than　he　has　done；　it　will　be　satisfactory。　　But　until　he

does　thatuntil　he　gives　a　better　or　more　plausible　reason　than　he

has　offered　against　the　evidence　in　the　caseI　suggest　to　him　it

will　not　avail　him　at　all　that　he　swells　himself　up；　takes　on

dignity；　and　calls　people　liars。　　Why；　sir；　there　is　not　a　word　in

Trumbull's　speech　that　depends　on　Trumbull's　veracity　at　all。　　He　has

only　arrayed　the　evidence　and　told　you　what　follows　as　a　matter　of

reasoning。　　There　is　not　a　statement　in　the　whole　speech　that　depends

on　Trumbull's　word。　　If　you　have　ever　studied　geometry；　you　remember

that　by　a　course　of　reasoning　Euclid　proves　that　all　the　angles　in　a

triangle　are　equal　to　two　right　angles。　　Euclid　has　shown　you　how　to

work　it　out。　　Now；　if　you　undertake　to　disprove　that　proposition；　and

to　show　that　it　is　erroneous；　would　you　prove　it　to　be　false　by

calling　Euclid　a　liar？　　They　tell　me　that　my　time　is　out；　and

therefore　I　close。









FIFTH　JOINT　DEBATE；　AT　GALESBURGH；



OCTOBER　7；　1858



Mr。　LINCOLN'S　REPLY。



MY　FELLOW…CITIZENS：　A　very　large　portion　of　the　speech　which　Judge

Douglas　has　addressed　to　you　has　previously　been　delivered　and　put　in

print。　　I　do　not　mean　that　for　a　hit　upon　the　Judge　at　all。…　　If　I

had　not　been　interrupted；　I　was　going　to　say　that　such　an　answer　as　I

was　able　to　make　to　a　very　large　portion　of　it　had　already　been　more

than　once　made　and　published。　　There　has　been　an　opportunity　afforded

to　the　public　to　see　our　respective　views　upon　the　topics　discussed

in　a　large　portion　of　the　speech　which　he　has　just　delivered。　　I　make

these　remarks　for　the　purpose　of　excusing　myself　for　not　passing　over

the　entire　ground　that　the　Judge　has　traversed。　　I　however　desire　to

take　up　some　of　the　points　that　he　has　attended　to；　and　ask　your

attention　to　them；　and　I　shall　follow　him　backwards　upon　some　notes

which　I　have　taken；　reversing　the　order；　by　beginning　where　he

concluded。



The　Judge　has　alluded　to　the　Declaration　of　Independence；　and

insisted　that　negroes　are　not　included　in　that　Declaration；　and　that

it　is　a　slander　upon　the　framers　of　that　instrument　to　suppose　that

negroes　were　meant　therein；　and　he　asks　you：　Is　it　possible　to

believe　that　Mr。　Jefferson；　who　penned　the　immortal　paper；　could　have

supposed　himself　applying　the　language　of　that　instrument　to　the

negro　race；　and　yet　held　a　portion　of　that　race　in　slavery？　　Would　he

not　at　once　have　freed　them？　　I　only　have　to　remark　upon　this　part　of

the　Judge's　speech　（and　that；　too；　very　briefly；　for　I　shall　not

detain　myself；　or　you；　upon　that　point　for　any　great　length　of　time）；

that　I　believe　the　entire　records　of　the　world；　from　the　date　of　the

Declaration　of　Independence　up　to　within　three　years　ago；　may　be

searched　in　vain　for　one　single　affirmation；　from　one　single　man；

that　the　negro　was　not　included　in　the　Declaration　of　Independence；　I

think　I　may　defy　Judge　Douglas　to　show　that　he　ever　said　so；　that

Washington　ever　said　so；　that　any　President　ever　said　so；　that　any

member　of　Congress　ever　said　so；　or　that　any　living　man　upon　the

whole　earth　ever　said　so；　until　the　necessities　of　the　present　policy

of　the　Democratic　party；　in　regard　to　slavery；　had　to　invent　that

affirmation。　　And　I　will　remind　Judge　Douglas　and　this　audience　that

while　Mr。　Jefferson　was　the　owner　of　slaves；　as　undoubtedly　he　was；

in　speaking　upon　this　very　subject　he　used　the　strong　language　that

〃he　trembled　for　his　country　when　he　remembered　that　God　was　just〃；

and　I　will　offer　the　highest　premium　in　my　power　to　Judge　Douglas　if

he　will　show　that　he；　in　all　his　life；　ever　uttered　a　sentiment　at

all　akin　to　that　of　Jefferson。



The　next　thing　to　which　I　will　ask　your　attention　is　the　Judge's

comments　upon　the　fact；　as　he　assumes　it　to　be；　that　we　cannot　call

our　public　meetings　as　Republican　meetings；　and　he　instances　Tazewell

County　as　one　of　the　places　where　the　friends　of　Lincoln　have　called

a　public　meeting　and　have　not　dared　to　name　it　a　Republican　meeting。

He　instances　Monroe　County　as　another；　where　Judge　Trumbull　and　Jehu

Baker　addressed　the　persons　whom　the　Judge　assumes　to　be　the　friends

of　Lincoln　calling　them　the　〃Free　Democracy。〃　　I　have　the　honor　to

inform　Judge　Douglas　that　he　spoke　in　that　very　county　of　Tazewell

last　Saturday；　and　I　was　there　on　Tuesday　last；　and　when　he　spoke

there；　he　spoke　under　a　call　not　venturing　to　use　the　word

〃Democrat。〃　　＇Turning　to　Judge　Douglas。＇　what　think　you　of　this？



So；　again；　there　is　another　thing　to　which　I　would　ask　the　Judge's

attention　upon　this　subject。　　In　the　contest　of　1856　his　party

delighted　to　call　themselves　together　as　the　〃National　Democracy〃；

but　now；　if　there　should　be　a　notice　put　up　anywhere　for　a　meeting　of

the　〃National　Democracy；〃　Judge　Douglas　and　his　friends　would　not

come。　　They　would　not　suppose　themselves　invited。　　They　would

understand　that　it　was　a　call　for　those　hateful　postmasters　whom　he

talks　about。



Now　a　few　words　in　regard　to　these　extracts　from　speeches　of　mine

which　Judge　Douglas　has　read　to　you；　and　which　he　supposes　are　in

very　great　contrast　to　each　other。　　Those　speeches　have　been　before

the　public　for　a　considerable　time；　and　if　they　have　any

inconsistency　in　them；　if　there　is　any　conflict　in　them；　the　public

have　been　able　to　detect　it。　　When　the　Judge　says；　in　speaking　on

this　subject；　that　I　make　speeches　of　one　sort　for　the　people　of　the

northern　end　of　the　State；　and　of　a　different　sort　for　the　southern

people；　he　assumes　that　I　do　not　understand　that　my　speeches　will　be

put　in　print　and　read　north　and　south。　　I　knew　all　the　while　that　the

speech　that　I　made　at　Chicago；　and　the　one　I　made　at　Jonesboro　and

the　one　at　Charleston；　would　all　be　put　in　print；　and　all　the　reading

and　intelligent　men　in　the　community　would　see　them　and　know　all

about　my　opinions。　　And　I　have　not　supposed；　and　do　not　now　suppose；

that　there　is　any　conflict　whatever　between　them。　　But　the　Judge　will

have　it　that　if　we　do　not　confess　that　there　is　a　sort　of　inequality

between　the　white　and　black　races　which　justifies　us　in　making　them

slaves；　we　must　then　insist　that　there　is　a　degree　of　equality　that

requires　us　to　make　them　our　wives。　　Now；　I　have　all　the　while　taken

a　broad　distinction　in　regard　to　that　matter；　and　that　is　all　there

is　in　these　different　speeches　which　he　arrays　here；　and　the　entire

reading　of　either　of　the　speeches　will　show　that　that　distinction　was

made。　　Perhaps　by　taking　two　parts　of　the　same　speech　he　could　have

got　up　as　much　of　a　conflict　as　the　one　he　has　found。　　I　have　all　the

while　maintained　that　in　so　far　as　it　should　be　insisted　that　there

was　an　equality　between　the　white　and　black　races　that　should　produce

a　perfect　social　and　political　equality；　it　was　an　impossibility。

This　you　have　seen　in　my　printed　speeches；　and　with　it　I　have　said

that　in　their　right　to　〃life；　liberty；　and　the　pursuit　of　happiness；〃

as　proclaimed　in　that　old　Declaration；　the　inferior　races　are　our

equals。　　And　these　declarations　I　have　constantly　made　in　reference

to　the　abstract　moral　question；　to　contemplate　and　consider　when　we

are　legislating　about　any　new　country　which　is　not　already　cursed

with　the　actual　presence　of　the　evil；slavery。　　I　have　never

manifested　any　impatience　with　the　necessities　that　spring　from　the

actual　presence　of　black　people　amongst　us；　and　the　actual　existence

of　slavery　amongst　us　where　it　does　already　exist；　but　I　have

insisted　that；　in　legislating　for　new　c