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June; and referred to the Committee on Territories; contained the

same section word for word。  Both these bills were under

consideration at the conference referred to; but; sir; when the

senator from Illinois reported the Toombs bill to the Senate with

amendments; the next morning; it did not contain that portion of the

third section which indicated to the Convention that the constitution

should be approved by the people。  The words 〃and ratified by the

people at the election for the adoption of the constitution〃 had been

stricken out。'〃



Now; these things Trumbull says were stated by Bigler upon the floor

of the Senate on certain days; and that they are recorded in the

Congressional Globe on certain pages。  Does Judge Douglas say this is

a forgery?  Does he say there is no such thing in the Congressional

Globe?  What does he mean when he says Judge Trumbull forges his

evidence from beginning to end?  So again he says in another place

that Judge Douglas; in his speech; December 9; 1857 (Congressional

Globe; part I。; page 15); stated:



〃That during the last session of Congress; I (Mr。 Douglas' reported a

bill from the Committee on Territories; to authorize the people of

Kansas to assemble and form a constitution for themselves。

Subsequently the senator from Georgia 'Mr。 Toombs' brought forward a

substitute for my bill; which; after having been modified by him and

myself in consultation; was passed by the Senate。〃



Now; Trumbull says this is a quotation from a speech of Douglas; and

is recorded in the Congressional Globe。  Is it a forgery?  Is it

there or not?  It may not be there; but I want the Judge to take

these pieces of evidence; and distinctly say they are forgeries if he

dare do it。



'A voice:〃He will。〃'



Well; sir; you had better not commit him。  He gives other

quotations;another from Judge Douglas。  He says:



〃I will ask the senator to show me an intimation; from any one member

of the Senate; in the whole debate on the Toombs bill; and in the

Union; from any quarter; that the constitution was not to be

submitted to the people。  I will venture to say that on all sides of

the chamber it was so understood at the time。  If the opponents of

the bill had understood it was not; they would have made the point on

it; and if they had made it; we should certainly have yielded to it;

and put in the clause。  That is a discovery made since the President

found out that it was not safe to take it for granted that that would

be done; which ought in fairness to have been done。〃



Judge Trumbull says Douglas made that speech; and it is recorded。

Does Judge Douglas say it is a forgery; and was not true?  Trumbull

says somewhere; and I propose to skip it; but it will be found by any

one who will read this debate; that he did distinctly bring it to the

notice of those who were engineering the bill; that it lacked that

provision; and then he goes on to give another quotation from Judge

Douglas; where Judge Trumbull uses this language:



〃Judge Douglas; however; on the same day and in the same debate;

probably recollecting or being reminded of the fact that I had

objected to the Toombs bill when pending that it did not provide for

a submission of the constitution to the people; made another

statement; which is to be found in the same volume of the Globe; page

22; in which he says:

'That the bill was silent on this subject was true; and my attention

was called to that about the time it was passed; and I took the fair

construction to be; that powers not delegated were reserved; and that

of course the constitution would be submitted to the people。'



〃Whether this statement is consistent with the statement just before

made; that had the point been made it would have been yielded to; or

that it was a new discovery; you will determine。〃



So I say。  I do not know whether Judge Douglas will dispute this; and

yet maintain his position that Trumbull's evidence 〃was forged from

beginning to end。〃  I will remark that I have not got these

Congressional Globes with me。  They are large books; and difficult to

carry about; and if Judge Douglas shall say that on these points

where Trumbull has quoted from them there are no such passages there;

I shall not be able to prove they are there upon this occasion; but I

will have another chance。  Whenever he points out the forgery and

says; 〃I declare that this particular thing which Trumbull has

uttered is not to be found where he says it is;〃 then my attention

will be drawn to that; and I will arm myself for the contest; stating

now that I have not the slightest doubt on earth that I will find

every quotation just where Trumbull says it is。  Then the question

is; How can Douglas call that a forgery?  How can he make out that it

is a forgery?  What is a forgery?  It is the bringing forward

something in writing or in print purporting to be of certain effect

when it is altogether untrue。  If you come forward with my note for

one hundred dollars when I have never given such a note; there is a

forgery。  If you come forward with a letter purporting to be written

by me which I never wrote; there is another forgery。  If you produce

anything in writing or in print saying it is so and so; the document

not being genuine; a forgery has been committed。  How do you make

this forgery when every piece of the evidence is genuine?   If Judge

Douglas does say these documents and quotations are false and forged;

he has a full right to do so; but until he does it specifically; we

don't know how to get at him。  If he does say they are false and

forged; I will then look further into it; and presume I can procure

the certificates of the proper officers that they are genuine copies。

I have no doubt each of these extracts will be found exactly where

Trumbull says it is。  Then I leave it to you if Judge Douglas; in

making his sweeping charge that Judge Trumbull's evidence is forged

from beginning to end; at all meets the case;if that is the way to

get at the facts。  I repeat again; if he will point out which one is

a forgery; I will carefully examine it; and if it proves that any one

of them is really a forgery; it will not be me who will hold to it

any longer。  I have always wanted to deal with everyone I meet

candidly and honestly。  If I have made any assertion not warranted by

facts; and it is pointed out to me; I will withdraw it cheerfully。

But I do not choose to see Judge Trumbull calumniated; and the

evidence he has brought forward branded in general terms 〃a forgery

from beginning to end。〃  This is not the legal way of meeting a

charge; and I submit it to all intelligent persons; both friends of

Judge Douglas and of myself; whether it is。



The point upon Judge Douglas is this: The bill that went into his

hands had the provision in it for a submission of the constitution to

the people; and I say its language amounts to an express provision

for a submission; and that he took the provision out。  He says it was

known that the bill was silent in this particular; but I say; Judge

Douglas; it was not silent when you got it。  It was vocal with the

declaration; when you got it; for a submission of the constitution to

the people。  And now; my direct question to Judge Douglas is; to

answer why; if he deemed the bill silent on this point; he found it

necessary to strike out those particular harmless words。  If he had

found the bill silent and without this provision; he might say what

he does now。  If he supposes it was implied that the constitution

would be submitted to a vote of the people; how could these two lines

so encumber the statute as to make it necessary to strike them out?

How could he infer that a submission was still implied; after its

express provision had been stricken from the bill?  I find the bill

vocal with the provision; while he silenced it。  He took it out; and

although he took out the other provision preventing a submission to a

vote of the people; I ask; Why did you first put it in?  I ask him

whether he took the original provision out; which Trumbull alleges

was in the bill。  If he admits that he did take it; I ask him what he

did it for。  It looks to us as if he had altered the bill。  If it

looks differently to him;if he has a different reason for his

action from the one we assign himhe can tell it。  I insist upon

knowing why he made the bill silent upon that point when it was vocal

before he put his hands upon it。



I was told; before my last paragraph; that my time was within three

minutes of being out。  I presume it is expired now; I therefore

close。









Mr。 LINCOLN'S REJOINDER。



FELLOW…CITIZENS: It follows as a matter of course that a half…hour

answer to a speech of an hour and a half can be but a very hurried

one。  I shall only be able to touch upon a few of the points

suggested by Judge Douglas; and give them a brief attention; while I

shall have to totally omit others f

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