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The Writings of Abraham Lincoln



by Abraham Lincoln









VOLUME IV



THE LINCOLN…DOUGLAS DEBATES II









LINCOLN AND DOUGLAS FOURTH JOINT DEBATE;



AT CHARLESTON; SEPTEMBER 18; 1858。



LADIES AND GENTLEMEN:It will be very difficult for an audience so

large as this to hear distinctly what a speaker says; and

consequently it is important that as profound silence be preserved as

possible。



While I was at the hotel to…day; an elderly gentleman called upon me

to know whether I was really in favor of producing a perfect equality

between the negroes and white people。  While I had not proposed to

myself on this occasion to say much on that subject; yet as the

question was asked me I thought I would occupy perhaps five minutes

in saying something in regard to it。  I will say; then; that I am

not; nor ever have been; in favor of bringing about in any way the

social and political equality of the white and black races; that I am

not; nor ever have been; in favor of making voters or jurors of

negroes; nor of qualifying them to hold office; nor to intermarry

with white people; and I will say; in addition to this; that there is

a physical difference between the white and black races which I

believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of

social and political equality。  And in as much as they cannot so

live; while they do remain together there must be the position of

superior and inferior; and I as much as any other man am in favor of

having the superior position assigned to the white race。  I say upon

this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have

the superior position the negro should be denied everything。  I do

not understand that because I do not want a negro woman for a slave I

must necessarily want her for a wife。  My understanding is that I can

just let her alone。  I am now in my fiftieth year; and I certainly

never have had a black woman for either a slave or a wife。  So it

seems to me quite possible for us to get along without making either

slaves or wives of negroes。  I will add to this that I have never

seen; to my knowledge; a man; woman; or child who was in favor of

producing a perfect equality; social and political; between negroes

and white men。  I recollect of but one distinguished instance that I

ever heard of so frequently as to be entirely satisfied of its

correctness; and that is the case of Judge Douglas's old friend

Colonel Richard M。 Johnson。  I will also add to the remarks I have

made (for I am not going to enter at large upon this subject); that I

have never had the least apprehension that I or my friends would

marry negroes if there was no law to keep them from it; but as Judge

Douglas and his friends seem to be in great apprehension that they

might; if there were no law to keep them from it; I give him the most

solemn pledge that I will to the very last stand by the law of this

State which forbids the marrying of white people with negroes。  I

will add one further word; which is this: that I do not understand

that there is any place where an alteration of the social and

political relations of the negro and the white man can be made;

except in the State Legislature;not in the Congress of the United

States; and as I do not really apprehend the approach of any such

thing myself; and as Judge Douglas seems to be in constant horror

that some such danger is rapidly approaching; I propose as the best

means to prevent it that the Judge be kept at home; and placed in the

State Legislature to fight the measure。  I do not propose dwelling

longer at this time on this subject。



When Judge Trumbull; our other Senator in Congress; returned to

Illinois in the month of August; he made a speech at Chicago; in

which he made what may be called a charge against Judge Douglas;

which I understand proved to be very offensive to him。  The Judge was

at that time out upon one of his speaking tours through the country;

and when the news of it reached him; as I am informed; he denounced

Judge Trumbull in rather harsh terms for having said what he did in

regard to that matter。  I was traveling at that time; and speaking at

the same places with Judge Douglas on subsequent days; and when I

heard of what Judge Trumbull had said of Douglas; and what Douglas

had said back again; I felt that I was in a position where I could

not remain entirely silent in regard to the matter。  Consequently;

upon two or three occasions I alluded to it; and alluded to it in no

other wise than to say that in regard to the charge brought by

Trumbull against Douglas; I personally knew nothing; and sought to

say nothing about it; that I did personally know Judge Trumbull; that

I believed him to be a man of veracity; that I believed him to be a

man of capacity sufficient to know very well whether an assertion he

was making; as a conclusion drawn from a set of facts; was true or

false; and as a conclusion of my own from that; I stated it as my

belief if Trumbull should ever be called upon; he would prove

everything he had said。  I said this upon two or three occasions。

Upon a subsequent occasion; Judge Trumbull spoke again before an

audience at Alton; and upon that occasion not only repeated his

charge against Douglas; but arrayed the evidence he relied upon to

substantiate it。  This speech was published at length; and

subsequently at Jacksonville Judge Douglas alluded to the matter。  In

the course of his speech; and near the close of it; he stated in

regard to myself what I will now read:



〃Judge Douglas proceeded to remark that he should not hereafter

occupy his time in refuting such charges made by Trumbull; but that;

Lincoln having indorsed the character of Trumbull for veracity; he

should hold him (Lincoln) responsible for the slanders。〃



I have done simply what I have told you; to subject me to this

invitation to notice the charge。  I now wish to say that it had not

originally been my purpose to discuss that matter at all  But in…as…

much as it seems to be the wish of Judge Douglas to hold me

responsible for it; then for once in my life I will play General

Jackson; and to the just extent I take the responsibility。



I wish to say at the beginning that I will hand to the reporters that

portion of Judge Trumbull's Alton speech which was devoted to this

matter; and also that portion of Judge Douglas's speech made at

Jacksonville in answer to it。  I shall thereby furnish the readers of

this debate with the complete discussion between Trumbull and

Douglas。  I cannot now read them; for the reason that it would take

half of my first hour to do so。  I can only make some comments upon

them。  Trumbull's charge is in the following words:



〃Now; the charge is; that there was a plot entered into to have a

constitution formed for Kansas; and put in force; without giving the

people an opportunity to vote upon it; and that Mr。 Douglas was in

the plot。〃



I will state; without quoting further; for all will have an

opportunity of reading it hereafter; that Judge Trumbull brings

forward what he regards as sufficient evidence to substantiate this

charge。



It will be perceived Judge Trumbull shows that Senator Bigler; upon

the floor of the Senate; had declared there had been a conference

among the senators; in which conference it was determined to have an

enabling act passed for the people of Kansas to form a constitution

under; and in this conference it was agreed among them that it was

best not to have a provision for submitting the constitution to a

vote of the people after it should be formed。  He then brings forward

to show; and showing; as he deemed; that Judge Douglas reported the

bill back to the Senate with that clause stricken out。  He then shows

that there was a new clause inserted into the bill; which would in

its nature prevent a reference of the constitution back for a vote of

the people;if; indeed; upon a mere silence in the law; it could be

assumed that they had the right to vote upon it。  These are the

general statements that he has made。



I propose to examine the points in Judge Douglas's speech in which he

attempts to answer that speech of Judge Trumbull's。  When you come to

examine Judge Douglas's speech; you will find that the first point he

makes is:



〃Suppose it were true that there was such a change in the bill; and

that I struck it out;is that a proof of a plot to force a

constitution upon them against their will?〃



His striking out such a provision; if there was such a one in the

bill; he argues; does not establish the proof that it was stricken

out for the purpose of robbing the people of that right。  I would

say; in the first place; that that would be a most manifest reason

for it。  It is true; as Judge Douglas states; that many Territorial

bills have passed without having such a provision in them。  I believe

it is true; though I am not certain; that 

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